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and this is weapons

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so when we when we started the interview

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something that that Jay said kind of

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right away that was so interesting to me

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was that

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ASAP

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it from the very onset was technological

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it was technology it was about discovery

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of disruptive Technologies and you look

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at all the dirts and the reports and

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obviously they're thinking

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forward-looking 30 50 years from now

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what could be a disruptive technology no

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matter where it's from what what could

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be a disruptive technology and then he

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said but look

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um where the evidence LED is that there

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were there were other things that we

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learned there was a disruptive

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technology aim but that there were a lot

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of other things they learned when they

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were studying things like the ranch so

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so that really threw me for a loop that

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um you know something like ASAP came in

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with the idea of identifying future

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threats and then realized wow there's a

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lot more going on he talked about that

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in his interview with us so everybody's

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photos off that's just as far as ringer

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yep oh yeah yeah and alarms are off the

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cameras are on the students little a b

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common marker

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you've done it on camera interview

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before have you done interviews before

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so this is the first

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I mean your world is the black World

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classified stuff right and you give me

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broad Strokes of your career the

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highlights and and kind of secure

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programs you worked on

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sure uh you know I started uh military I

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was a full-time reservist uh with the

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Air Force and I

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moved up to Maryland to work at Pax

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River to do weapons integration with the

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F-18 flight test out of navier and from

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there I went to the Office of Naval

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intelligence where I was recruited to be

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an airspace engineer working with them

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to look at you know really apply the the

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blue knowledge as we call it and apply

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it to the red and potential adversaries

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and write up reports on what I think

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foreign capabilities can do or not do in

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a sense reverse engineering absolutely

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and you take that into to DIA I went

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over to defense intelligence agency

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to work in the defense warning office

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where I was applying the same knowledge

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but at a higher level and more kind of

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orchestrating the Intel community at

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that point there's a term we use

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validation whereas if you're building an

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F-22 or you're building a Joint Strike

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Fighter uh you know you're really kind

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of Designing that to counter a Potential

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Threat and that Potential Threat needs

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to be a validated threat because what we

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can't have happen is a Lockheed Martin

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or a Boeing you know spending tons of

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money against a threat that they they

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say exists where the government needs to

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say it exists so it's kind of a

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contractual thing of you're building to

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the validated threat and that's what I

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did at the defense intelligence agency

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along with also having a science and

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Technical intelligence hat with the

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defensive learning office to look across

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the the Spectrum at technology

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specifically air and space that our

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Leading Edge things that could could be

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disruptive and challenge us

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in the future you know we're looking 10

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20 and sometimes 50 years out depending

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on on the topic and trying to to provide

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the Department of Defense and and across

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the Intel Community a better

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understanding of some of those potential

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disruptive threats so that we could uh

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get ahead of the game and counter them

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and when you're at DIA I'm ignorant of

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this stuff but you were a Navy guy who

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then goes to work for Dia does that mean

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you're a Navy guy with ndia or you're

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always a Navy guys so when I

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transitioned to office Naval

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intelligence I became civil service so

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I'm a Navy employee uh with the national

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Intel community so your service centers

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office Naval intelligence nasic National

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Air and Space Intel Center the missile

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and space Intel Center is a subcomponent

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of the DIA that's here in Huntsville and

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uh then you have the ncia which is the

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Marine Corps intelligence activity and

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then finally the National Ground Intel

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Center at Charlottesville those are the

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four what we call service centers and

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now you're going to have one for the

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space force co-located at

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Wright-Patterson Air Force Base those

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are service centers that support the

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analysis that supports the Navy or

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supports the Marine Corps supports the

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Army but in reality they are all funded

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by the director National Intelligence

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now the odni as as National Intel funded

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billets that are able to support so you

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know people refer to oh and I the office

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is the Navy's Intel Center the reality

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is it's the national Maritime Intel

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Center where we are the threat at the

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maritime in and and when you think of

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Navy too right you got to remember that

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Navy is the the Navy but the Navy also

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has an Air Force

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and the Navy has an Army and the Navy's

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Army has an Air Force right so it's a

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big Service uh

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so with that on I has a big big

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footprint and a big concern but in all

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of that the key in bringing up that the

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odni funds the forest service centers is

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very important because back to the

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threat that justifies the building of

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new systems and and such right the Air

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Force really wants a program they might

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go to NASA can say we need a threat to

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drive that program and we are funded by

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the national side of the house so we can

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say well we don't take orders from the

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Air Force in that regard we'll take

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orders from the Navy so we can you know

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this is the assessment right that's

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that's driven out of tradecraft and and

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that's the answer it's kind of

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independent it's very independent and

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and a lot of people don't realize that

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you know they look at those service

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Intel centers as kind of parts of the

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Air Force parts of the army they are on

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paper but in reality you know the

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majority of their budget comes from the

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national you you're so you're you have

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high security clearances you're you see

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sensitive stuff the sensitive as it gets

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all through my career uh so so from

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there you know Dia went back to Oni to

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be the head of air Warfare whether I was

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a deputy initially uh then the uh

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fleeted up as we say to be the director

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of air Warfare for o and I uh when I

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first went back uh we had I had

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everything and and that air that touches

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there in the Navy so science and

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technical side as well as the

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operational and tactics side we call it

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uh spear uh is kind of the the nickname

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for or the the name that that

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organization uses uh we've got a history

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all the way back to Desert Storm uh if

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you watch Top Gun originally Charlie

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that's briefing the migs she was based

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on a spear analyst so the group that I

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led has that kind of of pedigree of

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talking about how capabilities operate

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so you know your National Intel centers

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at nasik for example right can talk

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about a Russian fighter and I'll just

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throw an example when you everybody

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knows we look at Russia a Russian

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fighter talk about how fast it flies how

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high it can fly based on their

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assessments right uh what spear does is

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we we get into the head of the pilots

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and we try to talk about how they're

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going to fly that aircraft you know one

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of the analogies I've used for years is

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hockey players right every hockey player

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has to know how to skate some of them

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are better than the others but it's

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really about the game right it's about

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everything else butt skating skating

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comes second so if you think about that

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and apply it to a fighter aircraft it's

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how they're how they're deploying that

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right and guys what my background can

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watch somebody flying an airplane and go

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well he's probably rushing or you know

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or whoever right it might that's

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probably an American

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so you know you really kind of can

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recognize some of the the techniques and

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the way they do things you know mutual

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friend of ours is trying to describe how

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high up you went and he compared you to

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a two-star Admiral that wasn't accurate

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exactly you weren't comfortable with

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that but how how would I explain to our

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audience how far up the rung you went

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well sure it's it's right in us and and

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I didn't want to really push any uh

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buttons with that uh so from from oh and

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I you know I went to the Pentagon and I

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worked in into and six and switches the

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headquarters level for Naval

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intelligence the director of Naval

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intelligence uh is is dual had it is

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what we call the N2 and six was just you

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know the opnav office code

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um at that point I was still a 15 and

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then I went off to be uh the J2 the

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director of intelligence for the joint

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Warfare analysis Center at Dahlgren uh

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and then from there I was promoted

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initially to what we call tier one uh

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defense intelligence senior level tier

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one uh which is a as a senior executive

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position uh and then was uh within eight

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months or so I was bumped up to a tier

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two which is where the two star comes in

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uh

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throughout my career it's been you know

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are you really equal right we always

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throw out GS 15s or kernels or you know

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there's an equivalency but you don't go

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busting around the Pentagon saying oh

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I'll rank you or you know so right yeah

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but but you do uh have the the gravitas

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if that's a good word to use that's not

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a good word to use the the kind of the

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peer level uh right uh so you know if

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I'd go into a meeting uh with a two-star

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or one star you know kind of have a peer

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level so I'm not putting in the corner

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you know and and typically in my

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meetings I you know I was there

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representing someone higher than me as

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well sometimes I representing myself but

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sometimes I'm there representing someone

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higher than me so then I inherit their

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Authority I'm sitting at their seat with

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their name on it so I'm speaking for

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that person I wouldn't be sent to that

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meeting if I couldn't speak for that

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person and a lot of that in the Pentagon

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is resource sponsoring so you know I

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said in many uh tables where I was

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representing the resource sponsor and

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that gets attention because acquisition

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programs at your Navigator your navc

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your Air Force material came man those

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are all built on requirements back to

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the threat right and and those

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requirements are paid for by resource

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sponsors so the resource sponsor says we

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need a new Jammer and and from that

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resource sponsor requirements are driven

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and then capabilities are built and they

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go to whoever can build that capability

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whether that's navair or that's nav you

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know whoever that might be right so uh

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so in those circles you know you get to

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know a lot of people and that helped me

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later uh to to really kind of know who

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who I need to reach out to can you

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describe for me at what point UFOs they

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were called then uaps now at what point

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that kind of got on your radar screen

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was it something you had at least a

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casual interest in growing up or it came

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a point in your professional career that

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it it landed on your desk yeah every

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time I've done anything related to UAP

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or UFO has been my job

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um and and what I mean by that I didn't

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really have a passion growing up I

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didn't have all the books so I didn't

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watch all the TV shows I stepped into a

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job at the defense intelligence agency

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where some things came across the desk

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again thinking Technologies and other

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things where I needed to to really kind

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of dig in and understand potentials and

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those potentials you know I kept an open

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mind a skeptic mind whatever you want to

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call it you know looking for uh

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something that could answer this and all

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the means that I had to to to chase that

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but there were definitely some times

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where we really couldn't close the loop

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and with that uh we realized that that